Re: Satellite Tagging

Rach

Indeed, Patily, I have no doubt of Roy's devotion to these birds, but I still maintain he has no conception of what it is like to be an osprey with the harness and tracker, to have to navigate, catch fish, preen, establish a territory and all the other things

required for a life in the wild.

I know LOTL have trackers as they did not use them when Lady was ill in 2010 and sincerely hope they are not used this year.  Lady is old and does not take kindly to even ringing.  EJ is more calm. This could harm and stress her in what could be her final year but she always surprises and all well might return next year.

If LOTL do have to use them and I hope not, wait for another Dynasty first, please!  I am not sure if they still have them as they could of passed on to somewhere else. LOTL while Lady is there has a big audience because of Lady's Fame here and worldwide also.

I never thought to look at the "News" at LOTL please all read and they are going to tag and some will say good however I am not happy and please if anyone agrees with me then please say so.

It was not on the main blog at LOTL and yes posted on the news. I am commenting as feel so strong about this and yes people will say tag Lady's birds but how will she take it? I just hope this does not kill her through stress. About time someone thought about birds and Lady does not deserve this at all!!!

Please leave alone and ringing I hope and I know a chick died through ringing through an accident and ringing stopped but now to tag is a disgrace and please leave for a new dynasty or forever hopefully. I have my thoughts and if anyone can stress an old wonderful Osprey I am disgusted.

edit: as also interested why and know a reason could be Lady's last chicks. NO NO NO please NO

I have updated

Well said B&B if they do tag lady's young, then everyone should show thier disgused by letting them know and if they are members of LoL then resign, as this discustion has shown, nothing good has come out of putting these things on our birds, yes I mean OUR birds, so for goodness sake make them stop. I for one have just E-mailed my member of parliment to see what can be done, I would say to everyone who is opposed to them send an e-mail to your MP telling him exactly how you feel and the reasons. Alan

B&B i'm with you as regards Lady,nothing should be done to upset her,it would be awful if anything happened to her because her chick (or chicks) were removed from the nest for ringing and tagging,EJ seems to cope and so do the Bald Eagles i've seen when their chicks are removed from the nests,but Lady does not,so leave well alone this may be the last time we see the wonderful Lady,and I would hate for her to be distressed by this.

In fact just leave all the birds alone,they were not born to have baggage attached to them.

Ok Alan and your stats are wonderful and appreciate very much but it has been proved on red kites the lesions were significant and deep wounds. Surely the same must apply to Ospreys and any other birds tagged and I seriously want an answer from the RSPB to say these tags are not harming birds and not just Ospreys. I want an answer and will not stop until I get one.

The RSPB are to protect birds and not harm them in any way and these back packs are, Evidence from other birds but no Ospreys as the are in Africa.

I totally understand the threads for statistics but this has got to stop and I will not stop until any evidence to help the birds Ospreys or others. RSPB you look at what you are doing and I want to know if you can genuinely come back and jusity this?

Ok we need to write to the RSPB Head Office and ask the question, I will and I do see both sides but if any doubt these harnesses and trackers harm any bird. It should be stopped. "Immediately"

I am appalled that Loch of the Lowes see fit to jump on the bandwaggon and tag what could be Lady's last chicks. I was going to send them a donation for the enjoyment I have had from the excellent blogs and pictures and camera-work from the team there, now I shall withold it till the end of the season, and if the chicks are tagged, they will not get it.

ALAN PETRIE

Here are the numbers of ringed young ospreys supplied by the BTO:

2008 148

2009 194

2010 182

2011 164.

How many of these have returned?. Very few I suspect. Tagging or not I think the birds would have perished regardless. There are a lot of dangers in Africa apart from shooting. fishing netting, crocodiles, hyenas etc.

...and these totals are only for the number of young ringed, not for the number fledged. At least 312 young are known to have fledged in 2008, and 291 in 2009 - but the number of breeding pairs reported each year remains relatively stable, somewhere around, or just below 200 pairs. If the population was increasing, or if adult survival was known to be low (it isn't, which is why specific individuals are looked out for at breeding sites each year, and also shown by the fact that birds tagged as adults are far more likely to return), then it might seem surprising that so many tagged juveniles seem not to make it back - as Alan says, most obviously perish regardless.

patily

Can anybody tell me please, whether there is any further particular data that it is hoped will be gained by further tagging of youngsters? When was the first tag used on a young bird?

You have to realise that the quantity of 'data' so far available is insignificant. Data received from a 'handful' of individuals is interesting, but cannot be taken as indicative of an entire population (and including adults, and the birds from Rutland which are not necessarily representative of the Scottish population, there have barely been more than 50 individuals tagged in the UK). Ringed individuals of all species are rarely reported anywhere, let alone from the parts of Africa where British Ospreys are believed to spend the winter (the 'locals' could be asked to report them, but very few actually have binoculars, yet alone binoculars and telescopes that would usually be good enough to read a ring - try reading lettered colour rings yourself next time you see a bird marked with on). Reporting rates for darvic type colour rings are far higher than for metal rings, but the amount of data returned is insignificant compared to that returned by a satellite tag.

It is also worth noting that it is only in recent years that the satellite tags have become more reliable - so older tags rarely provided as much data before they failed. We still don't know what the most important migration routes, stop off areas, and wintering areas are, and therefore can't know what the major hazards are to survival in those areas.

Jan

Sorry you misinterprited what I ment first this argument re fitting harnesses with cotton is not true, the harness are made from teflon, and are secured in such a way that they cannot come off, and no way to date has anyone found a way to make sure both straps break at the same time

The harnesses are made from teflon, but it is not difficult to make them in a way that means they will fall off if a single cotton loop breaks (though I believe that harnesses made from two loops of teflon have sometimes been used for some birds). You can try this by making a 'harness' with four 'straps', each with a loop at the end through which a single cotton loop can be threaded once the four straps are brought together - if the cotton breaks/rots through, all four 'straps' from the harness are released and it easily falls off (try making a backpack this way and tying the loops together with a piece of string in the centre of your chest - then cut the string. nb. tie the string only to itself, not to any of the straps).

As for the "we were told the harnesses would only remain for one year" that you also mentioned, I have frequently seen this repeated, but have yet to find any evidence that it is true. I suspect confusion with tail mounted transmitters, also used at Rutland, that were designed to fall off during the next moult. Satellite tags were intended to last for 3-4 years right from the start (though rarely lasted longer than a year at first due to problems with the technology).

robin red

I fully agree with you Jan. it is about time we all realised that some wool is been pulled over our eyes,

There seem to be a few compete like this - but if it was true that the organisations involved with satellite tagging were trying to mislead people do you not think that we would NOT be hearing about birds being 'lost' (note that lost does not necessarily mean 'dead', one of the Rutland Ospreys was assumed 'lost' but then turned up again alive and well, but without the satellite tag (proof that the harnesses can fall off safely). If there was any intention to mislead us, I would think that we would not be hearing anything at all about lost birds - how easy would it be to say that they had been tracked back to Scotland/ to Scandinavia/ or wherever? The chance of someone being able to show that they weren't where claimed is zero.

bright&breezy

Ok Alan and your stats are wonderful and appreciate very much but it has been proved on red kites the lesions were significant and deep wounds. Surely the same must apply to Ospreys and any other birds tagged and I seriously want an answer from the RSPB to say these tags are not harming birds and not just Ospreys. I want an answer and will not stop until I get one.

I take it that you have read the full paper detailing the wounds found on satellite tagged Red Kites, and not just the abstract, or a summary given elsewhere? It was found that the tags that had caused 'pathonogenic legions', were within tag/body weight guidelines determined in 1980, but not within new guidelines determined in 2005. The design of the tags also differs from those that I have seen stated as used on Ospreys (the Red Kite harnesses concerned were apparently meant to be on for life). "Duration of deployment" was found to be significant in contributing to adverse effects, and the recommendation was not that harness mounting of satellite tags should be stopped, just that any potential harmful effects should be closely monitored.

Obviously if there is any significant risk of harm then monitoring techniques need to be adapted to avoid this - and there is no evidence at all that current techniques cause any harm to Ospreys.

Rach  Loch of the Lowes already have the money for tagging this years chicks.  The money was raised 2 years ago, however, that was the year lady was ill and they decided against it.

I am also very worried that they have decided to tag this years chicks.  Lady is getting on now, maybe they should just leave her alone, this may be her last season, (hopefully not though).   The loss of all the Loch Garten tagged chicks, has put me right off this tagging,  I'm just not so sure anymore.

I understand RoyW and until it is proved that the trackers do tell us more than we already know they winter in Senegal and Spain also proof there is no harm to the birds, I am against.

I do see both sides and have followed as interested.

If an Osprey is recovered and a big IF. it will be interesting to see if the trackers have made lesions on them. We will not be told if the case and maybe it has happened

I understand what you are saying and you can fill me with all stats you like but no matter what to me it is not right to put harnesses on any bird.  I would not like to think I had a back pack on me to carry for years.

I seriously would like to know what the RSPB think of this and need to do more research an will not stop until I get answers.

I want to know if the RSPB think this is ok and their reasons why?

If there is any doubt it should stop "immediately"

RoyW : Thank you for your articulate reply to some of the concerns expressed in this thread re tagging. I agree with all you have said. I think we have only scratched the surface re what goes on in Africa and we need more data to assess what needs to be done to help prevent some of these losses. It is not the tags that is the problem, it is other factors mainly in Africa.

bright&breezy

until it is proved that the trackers do tell us more than we already know they winter in Senegal and Spain also proof there is no harm to the birds, I am against.

Satellite tags already have told us more than we previously knew. For example, we now know that Ospreys may seem to have settled into a wintering area, but may then head further south fairly late in the winter (AW from Rutland seemed to have settled in a wintering area in Guinea, where he spent three months, but then suddenly moved nearly 1000km to the Ivory Coast in late December). With the increased accuracy of GPS transmitters we are also learning that individuals tend to settle in specific areas, from which they rarely travel far - but they still occasionally make longer 'exploratory' flights to other areas, and may change the area they are fishing in at different times. The increased accuracy also (and better battery life, which means more data can be transmitted each day) also means that the distances travelled each day on feeding flights, and on migration, can be determined.

What can this sort of information be used for? For one thing, it can be used to educate the 'locals' in the areas in which UK Ospreys are known to winter. There have been some known cases of Ospreys being killed by humans (including satellite tagged birds - the tags from which have usually been returned when found on the birds because it was realised that they were important, eg. one killed Osprey was reportedly taken to the British embassy because it was realised that the Osprey was "on a mission"). Knowing about the movements of Ospreys is important when trying to educate the locals to convince them not to kill them, including details of how far they have travelled on migration, and how far they travel daily. Education also needs to be targeted to areas that are most important for Ospreys - so we need to know where these areas are.  

As far as asking for "proof that there is no harm to the birds" goes, what you are asking for there is something that is impossible to provide. We can never proof that something doesn't ever cause harm, all we can do is say that harm hasn't been found to have been caused yet and/or act to prevent any harm that is found to have been caused. Contrary to the beliefs of some, there is no reason for any harmful effects that are found to be caused to be "covered up" - and certainly no benefit from carrying on with studies that are known to negatively affect the subjects. If a potential problem is identified, techniques will be altered to try and eliminate this.

Similarly, we cannot prove that, for example. mobile phones do not cause brain tumours, and living in close proximity to power lines does lead to a greatly increased risk of cancer - but there is no good evidence that there are ill effects in either case, so there is no reason for any action to be taken (other than perhaps monitoring to see if future evidence does warrant changes).

bright&breezy

f an Osprey is recovered and a big IF. it will be interesting to see if the trackers have made lesions on them. We will not be told if the case and maybe it has happened

Suggesting that there is some sort of 'conspiracy' that prevents any information that would support your viewpoint (in this case that satellite tag harnesses cause harm) is never a good argument. Negative effects of marking studies do occur, but these are openly discussed, and preventative solutions found - and stopping the use of the particular marking technique entirely may be considered in some cases.

The suggestion that "We will not be told" goes against all evidence, for instance, the fact that some Red Kites were found with legions that are considered to have been directly caused by harnesses was not covered up, the BTO published a paper themselves about leg injuries caused by certain types of colour rings on flycatchers, and there are a number of papers detailing the fact that wing tags on penguins caused reduced survival. In all cases the findings will have been taken into account by later studies (eg. specific colour rings that were found to have no harmful effect are used on flycatchers, and wing tags are no longer used on penguins). 

Ideally we would never need to mark any wildlife in any way, but in reality we do need to if we are going to learn enough about their behaviour and ecology for effective conservation - the type of data that is needed is just not obtainable by simply observing unmarked individuals.

Roy, thank you for taking the time to answer concerns.  I am in full agreement with you.

If tagging helps to identify a cause for the loss of Ospreys in Africa, and potentially will save some of their lives, I am all for it.

I have followed this discussion with interest.  I said on the main blog a couple of days ago that if renowned experts like Roy Dennis and his international counterparts continue to tag osprey they must feel the risk is worth it and would not deliberately do anything which it was felt would be detrimental to the birds.  I believe that a number of our recent losses have been in inhospitable areas, the after-effect of major sandstorms, shallow water areas where they would be susceptible to predation - all the result of nature rather than the tags.  I assume there is also evidence of people killing osprey for food, but I have not come across it.  Part of the project must be to educate those in their wintering quarters, just as the folk at Rutland do each year.  A brilliant project.

There have been some very articulate contributions with good scientific grounding rather than emotive offerings.  In particular, like Valc, I would like to thank Roy for his wise comments.  I am neither a scientist nor a mathematician/statistician, but I can see nothing but benefit to be gained on behalf of osprey with them being tagged.

What are the return rates of birds breeding in north America?  Are they similar?  I have no idea how many breeding pairs there are.  I found an published article referring to problems with insecticides and DDT still being used in US osprey wintering quarters having an affect - I assume the insecticides get into the fish and then absorbed by the birds and being passed on to the eggs, but do not know to technicalities.  Is there such a problem with our European birds wintering in Africa?  Are there concerns elsewhere (Europe, US, etc) about tagging?