Re: Satellite Tagging

Thank you Sue C and need to find the report and not a report from the project team and apreciate very much your reply.

I honestly want out of this and I do not agree with tracking  and I have tried but keep getting drawn in as a very interesting discussion and wonderful if kept that way.

I am not against tracking but the harnesses and back packs, so intrusive. that is why I am against it. Please get new technology and if you can satelite a car with a tiny piece, do it with birds. ok more money but even if only one to me it is worth it. Surely these harnesses and trackers could be replaced and then I will be 100% behind. Time to be more friendly for the birds or leave alone for now.

bright&breezy

Does anyone agree with LOTL tagging. If it happens then I would hope for a new Dynasty.

Lady will go mental and if anyone can stress a very old Lady and wonderful Osprey it is disgusting. I am saying this and yes LOTL will tag but leave it until another dynasty. Leave Lady alone and do not stress her.

I know a lot will want tagging and Lady maybe back next year but she did not take well to ringing.

Where does the information that Lady did not react well to ringing come from? No osprey parent takes well to disturbance at the nest (I saw an account somewhere recently of a ringer being physically attacked by an irate adult), but every description of ringing I've ever read or heard indicates that things settle down again very quickly. I've never heard it suggested that Lady reacted unusually badly.

As I understand it they haven't ringed at Lowes since 2004, when a chick died shortly after ringing. I believe lack of sightings of ringed young was another factor. That presumably means that Lady's chicks were routinely ringed for 14 years - I really don't think they would have done that if they felt it was detrimental to the female. I can't see that age would - or should - be a factor. After all, she was already quite old in osprey terms in 2004.

Odin attacked the climbers last year when they went  up to  get the chicks for tagging and ringing.

They had seem him leave to go fishing so they thought it was safe. He came back unexpectedly and  with a fish  in one talon he used the  other talon to attack a hard hat 

As we can see it is a complex situation. Lots can be learned by tracking of that there is no doubt. However if you have a philosophical objection to tracking then evidence does not matter.

Apparently one of the tracked birds last year was killed by the bird diving into water that was too shallow and then the injured bird was taken by a jackal.

In my view you either approve of science or you don't.

Thankyou, Roy, for your reply.

In answer to your query regarding my opposition to human intervention, in the case of feeding stations, birds come of their own free will to these, not because they have no choice in the matter. I do have more of a problem with re-introduction schemes, but can accept this if the species was present in the area before and was rendered extinct because of the actions of man. Habitat management is very often returning an area to what it was before man tinkered with it, to its detriment. Your last point concerning culling is of course a difficult one, but in the case of introduced species that endanger native species in one way or another, I believe strongly that wherever possible, they should be culled ( grey squirrels come to mind here.).

I am at a loss to understand why you believe that young ospreys do not build up their muscles as a result of flying several thousand miles and living on a high protein diet! Surely their metabolism cannot be that different to other warm-blooded creatures? I accept that their skeletons have reached adult size, but not that their soft tissue does not alter.

Rachel. I do remember and I will find but Lady did go balistic at  ringing and did not take well to it. Maybe someone else if brave enough will say.

LOTL said they would never ring after the accident at ringing and now going to tag. What will this do to Lady ?? On their own heads if things go wrong and sincerely hope not but leave her alone, she is old and a joy she is back. Please leave for a new dynasty that is all I am saying.

Of course I want to know about her chicks and not sure but tagging to me is not a good idea.

Can anyone say this will not harm her through stress?

I wonder if anyone cares as Blue XD and Green J were left without a nest and to me  two very important in the life of Ospreys. Translocation etc. They were left with no nest and Green J is over 20 yrs old.

Is this all for commercial reasons and wonder if so?

As soon as Roy was contacted regarding Blue XD he went to the area of his nest and saw it had been damaged. If you recall there was a  terrible snow storm with  several inches of snow . The snow was very deep and yet within a couple of days volunteers and Roy rebuilt the nest. Green J and Blue XD were NOT left without a nest. Green J did not return until after the nest had been repaired  so she could not  have been  upset. IF you recall EJ was over there with Blue XD . And according to Roy's blog they have eggs and perhaps chicks by now .

Considering the vast area of  LG and the  knee deep snow it was  impossible to check every nest in the area. IF you live in Scotland perhaps you should volunteer to  help check nests next year. .

bright&breezy

I wonder if anyone cares as Blue XD and Green J were left without a nest and to me  two very important in the life of Ospreys. Translocation etc. They were left with no nest and Green J is over 20 yrs old.

Is this all for commercial reasons and wonder if so?

This is a very interesting and thought-provoking thread.  I feel I must come right out and say that I am in favour of ringing and tagging, while ever there is some useful point in it.  At this point there is DEFINITELY some point to it, and I feel it must continue.  Like most people here, I would much prefer if the tags were smaller and less intrusive, but the technology will only improve if there is demand for the improvements through continued use of tags.  I'm wondering if the right technology is being used for the tags though.  Even as a scientific 'lay person', I can see that there is a minimum size required for a solar panel, which then must charge a battery to power a transmitter. Even kid's solar-powered kit toys demonstrate this.  Perhaps it's time to think outside the square.  I'm thinking now, as an example, of those automatically winding watches we used to wear years ago - remember them?  They were kept wound by the movement of the wrist.  My 'ideal' solution would be to see something small enough to be incorporated in a leg ring (or similar) which would do the job as well or better than the current solar powered trackers.  

Jan that is a very  interesting idea :)

It would keep working  indefinitely and never fall off . GPS chips are so small they would easily fit  in a leg ring. 

It  may lose power while the bird is on an extended flight, but it would recharge as soon as the  bird landed somewhere or went fishing. The trackers now lose power when there are several  cloudy days so  it would not be any different.  Hum-m-m

Hi wattle15,

I am on record as being against tracking... A question.. What more do we have to learn? We know where the birds go, we know that some return all the way back as two year olds and some make a partial migration, we know of a danger area that some birds have vanished from.. We also know that to date  a tagged fledgling has not returned to the Uk..

So what is there that we DEFINATELY need to learn?

There is evidence from other species that the "school bags" are harming the birds I am with you, in that if tracking MUST continue then some other technology would be preferable.

Barbara I do live in Scotland and I think it was the winds in January that destroyed the nest.  I saw the destruction at Glenderaule and other places and was shocked.

All things ended well and do not think Roy Dennis is responsible but cared enough to look into it. Things ended well and would love to know how Blue XD and Green J are doing and they had been left in the background until now and rightly so and a sucessful nest.

Yes Roy Dennis is passionate about Ospreys and no doubt about that :)

Wattle15 thank you for your input and I am for tracking but it is the harnesses and back packs I do not like.

Hopefully a day soon when as someone else said to me about a tag in a leg ring. I would donate to a more friendly option as it is not the tracking I disagree with. Thank you very much

They plan to track several fledglings again this year. If after this year they  only gather " fun to know facts" about their behavior, but nothing vital to their survival  then I think they  should seriously consider  stopping the tracking. It is fun to know  2 year olds don't always make a  complete migration the first time, but to me that is not worth the stress on the birds just having the harness attached or the money spent on the tracking.

6 LG  birds were tracked and all that was learned is where they went, Rothes made a partial  migration and that either their trackers fell off or they perished. That is not much new information for an investment of approximately £22,000 

I have  seen  comments both ways if these trackers do or do not harm the birds . Most I have read are speculation for and against . So I really don't know what to make of  it .

Hi Barbara, I really should be tucked up for the night...

The loss rate of the fledglings is, in my opinion, normal.. Can you imagine what would happen if every single bird hatched, just this year returned in two or three years time.

I believe the population is growing and that is good news.. But it could get to unsustainable pretty quickly in some areas if all the chicks came home. Natural selection, survival of the fittest.. So that adds another question. Are we hampering a potentially fit for survival bird by putting an ariel on its back?

I would like to know this too.  If they  made a greater effort ( when possible ) to retrieve the bodies perhaps we would know.  There were only 6 LG birds tagged in the past 4 years. They know where they lost their trackers or perished . Surely they could have set aside enough money to make 6 trips to Africa to find  a definitive answer.  Someone  did go the last known place of Bynack and didn't find  his body nor the tracker, so I realize it  would not always be possible to find the  body or the tracker. But I feel a greater   effort is needed. Tell the locals we will give  them a generous  monetary reward if they  return a dead Osprey.  

black jaguar

 So that adds another question. Are we hampering a potentially fit for survival bird by putting an ariel on its back?

Wattle 15:  Those watches you refer to were also waterproof!   a very nice feature for an osprey.  Also inexpensive, unless you went for  expensive casing & band.