Re: Satellite Tagging

I do think that the original topic has diversified too much and become a political discussion which isnt about whether to tag Ospreys or not. We shouldnt be discussing the politics of over fishing in Africa, but we should be talking about whether tags help us to learn more about what happens in the first 3 years or so afer the birds have left the nest. I dont want to discuss the rights/wrongs that Greenpeace or other such biased organisations want me to believe. The points on here have diversified too much from Ospreys for me to want to read anymore.

Before I get picked up about calling Greenpeace biased, Yes they are, and that is their reason for being. Im not saying they are right or wrong.

Cooky: I have deleted my last post. However, I don't know how you can make sound strategy decisions -- about tagging, education programmes, and fundraising -- unless you consider the conditions in NW Africa.

Diane in Indiana

This post was deleted by me. It was never my intention to hijack this thread.

Your  information  came from the  discussion  about "What additional  information will  the  trackers  provide".  We agreed to this point they have offered no  answers to one of the biggest questions which is  "why are the  survival  rates so low"  . Other reasons for a low survival rate were discussed such as Natural selection and Natural Predators. The drought was mentioned and it's affect on all living things including the  birds. You offered another " possible" reason which is the over fishing and how that "may"  be  impacting  human behavior . You offered links  for anyone who had not  heard of this problem

It  was  pointed out we have no way to retrieve the bodies to investigate the cause of death  even though the tracker show  where the signal was stationary and  eventually stopped transmitting. Physical examination of the bodies would be the only way to  provide "definitive proof"  of a cause of death .  

The three reasons we can't retrieve the bodies are that  many are in remote unaccessible locations;  scavengers would get to them before someone  could go there and the  unsafe political environment in several areas of  West Africa  could put  searchers in danger

If  they can't retrieve  the bodies of tracked birds to establish the cause of death; If many areas where  tracked birds are known to winter are too unsafe or unaccessible for people to go there and  investigate the environment;  If other aspects such as drought, over fishing or civil  unrest,  which are out of  anyone's control,  are at the core of  the low survival rates , then is the value of  tracking diminished? 

All of this evolved from the  question of the  value for or against  continuing to track.  

Neither you nor anyone else said they had proof this was  the cause of the low  survival rate. It was simply  offered as a " possible", and in my opinion a valid  reason,  to be consider

Unless some new ideas or discussions  are offered I think I am finished with this thread too

Thank you very much, Barbara. You are correct. I never said that over-fishing has been linked to low survival rates (by the science community). I did say that as fish populations collapse, ospreys will be at increasing risk from their own diminishing food supply and from human hunting due to famine -- thus education programmes won't work going forward.

Barbara, thanks for your efforts.

I would like to know "from the horses' mouths" what specific additional information is needed and/or hoped and/or expected to be collected from continued tagging.

There have been some interesting points made.  I would add

- The number of UK juveniles tagged since 2007 is too small to draw firm conclusions about survival rates which are very variable.  Of the 6 youngsters tagged in 2007 and 2008 only 1 (Nethy) reached Africa with a working transmitter.  2 were lost at sea, 1 was recovered dead and for 2 transmissions were lost.   All 13 young birds from 2009 to 2011 reached Africa though only 3 are still transmitting.

- It is possible that the small extra weight can impact survival at the margins.  I read a while back (in the New Scientist) that researchers with penguins had found that the established practice of fitting wing bands for identification was leading to lower survival and breeding success.  

- Current survival rates may be normal for the species.  There appears to be a slow increase in UK numbers.   Red Kites increase much faster but they do not face the hazards of migration. They also breed younger and have larger broods.

- One limiting factor is that most young birds return to establish breeding areas where there may be no space for new territories.  Many birds fail to breed for a number of years as a result. Normally there would not be large areas of good habitat unoccupied so empty regions appear unattractive to the ospreys.  

I've just come into this today & this thread has made very interesting reading. We've been following the storks nesting on the Gironde estuary in Charente maritime for a number of years & regularly read the rings on the adults to see who is nesting with who. Last year another observer pointed out that ringing of birds was egoistical, that it didn't benefit the birds just created human interest. Since then I've had severe doubts about all this ringing & satellite transmitting. He also pointed out that it can cause broken legs in misfitting rings, & we've seen 2 storks (or the same one 2 years running) with a broken leg. We feel the money spent on ringing the birds could be better spent going around schools & teaching children about the benefits of living with nature & without pesticides, herbicides etc.

On the Ospreys, we've heard somewhere that birds fitted with satellite transmittors are treated with suspicsion by locals in parts of Africa as they are believed to be transmitting spy data to the US!!!!! Needless to say if they can shoot down the spy they do.

I think that the money spent on ringing & tracking would be better spent investigating the problems in the accessible areas of Africa, tracking the birds doesn't stop whats causing the deaths. Effectively, you can't stop the birds going to dodgy areas or improve conditions there.  

However after all that if I see a PJ ring (Rothes) I'd be thrilled to bits, perverse aren't I!

Wow I can imagine  a  rumor  like this circulating among the locals .  :(

People from the  beginning of civilization have  invented  outlandish  explanations for things they don't understand . And it doesn't only happen in underdeveloped countries. Y2K ??LOL

We are ALL hoping you see  a bird with a PJ leg ring!! Thanks for keeping  a watchful eye  for Rothes.  

Noisette

On the Ospreys, we've heard somewhere that birds fitted with satellite transmitters are treated with suspicion by locals in parts of Africa as they are believed to be transmitting spy data to the US!!!!! Needless to say if they can shoot down the spy they do.

However after all that if I see a PJ ring (Rothes) I'd be thrilled to bits, perverse aren't I!

HilaryJ

There have been some interesting points made.  I would add

- The number of UK juveniles tagged since 2007 is too small to draw firm conclusions about survival rates which are very variable.  Of the 6 youngsters tagged in 2007 and 2008 only 1 (Nethy) reached Africa with a working transmitter.  2 were lost at sea, 1 was recovered dead and for 2 transmissions were lost.   All 13 young birds from 2009 to 2011 reached Africa though only 3 are still transmitting.

- It is possible that the small extra weight can impact survival at the margins.  I read a while back (in the New Scientist) that researchers with penguins had found that the established practice of fitting wing bands for identification was leading to lower survival and breeding success.  

- Current survival rates may be normal for the species.  There appears to be a slow increase in UK numbers.   Red Kites increase much faster but they do not face the hazards of migration. They also breed younger and have larger broods.

- One limiting factor is that most young birds return to establish breeding areas where there may be no space for new territories.  Many birds fail to breed for a number of years as a result. Normally there would not be large areas of good habitat unoccupied so empty regions appear unattractive to the ospreys.  

All valid points.

Ospreys are increasing in the UK and Europe, and it may be that current survival rates are no different from the way they have always been. It is true that Ospreys generally do seem to return to the areas where they were raised, and most seem reluctant to breed in areas of apparently suitable habitat away from established populations. In many ways this seems similar to the situation with many other species, with expansion into new areas often only occurring when populations exceed saturation levels. Thankfully a few individuals do 'set up home' in new areas!

With regard to the possible impact that tagging could have, there is no point in denying that there may be effects that we don't know about (in the case of wing tagged penguins it was found that 'drag' caused by the tags made swimming c20% less efficient). If there are found to be negative effects then these should definitely be acted upon (wing tagging is no longer recommended for any penguin species), but it is not really reasonable to insist on changes just because there might be a negative effect - that would stop us from doing anything an all in life!

Noisette

We've been following the storks nesting on the Gironde estuary in Charente maritime for a number of years & regularly read the rings on the adults to see who is nesting with who. Last year another observer pointed out that ringing of birds was egoistical, that it didn't benefit the birds just created human interest. Since then I've had severe doubts about all this ringing & satellite transmitting. He also pointed out that it can cause broken legs in misfitting rings, & we've seen 2 storks (or the same one 2 years running) with a broken leg. We feel the money spent on ringing the birds could be better spent going around schools & teaching children about the benefits of living with nature & without pesticides, herbicides etc.

Even if there was no other benefit from the ringing of birds, if human interest is created then there is a benefit - if people are interested in following the birds (even if only to see who is nesting with who), then they are far more likely to be prepared to help to make changes that benefit the birds (at least by adding their name to petitions, or donating money, even if they can't help in any other way). Education of children is without doubt essential if later generations are to learn to value wildlife, but there needs to be something to make children want to take an interest - and in todays society, with many children apparently spending less and less time out of doors, and more time on computers and the internet, tracking schemes that they can actively follow, almost in real time, are definitely one way to engage their interest.

Information gained from this type of study may seem like it is only 'interesting', rather than of direct benefit to conservation, but for effective species conservation all aspects of the species life and behaviour are important. Information that is discovered may not seem to be of value, but it all helps to put together an understanding of the species - and facts that only seem 'interesting' or 'fun' now, may be found to be essential in combatting unforeseen future threats to the species (it is always better to have knowledge before it is needed!).

With regards to broken legs being caused by ill fitting rings, I wonder if he had any data at all to support this? Broken legs seem to be a frequent type of injury in storks, and I would expect both ringed and unringed individuals are affected equally (for example the in study of White Storks migrating through Israel and south-east Europe at the web address below, 324 observations of birds with broken legs were made - and it was believed that these injuries were mainly caused by collision with power cables/ wires. the study also summarises data found - much of which could definitely be used to benefit the birds.

Eastern European White Stork study:

http://www.bfn.de/fileadmin/MDB/documents/storch.pdf

and a long term tracking study of a Swiss White Stork (for anyone interested):

http://www.fr.ch/mhn/en/pub/projects/suivi_satellitaire_de_la_cigog/le_suivi_satellitaire.htm

Noisette

On the Ospreys, we've heard somewhere that birds fitted with satellite transmittors are treated with suspicsion by locals in parts of Africa as they are believed to be transmitting spy data to the US!!!!! Needless to say if they can shoot down the spy they do.

Whether there is any fact behind this is debatable - but whether or not there is any truth to it, it's probably the most believable reason I've seen suggested for the deliberate targeting of satellite tagged Ospreys (and other birds).

Personally I don't buy into the idea that the birds are shot for the value of the tags, because realistically it would be difficult to use them for any thing other than migration studies - and anyone intending to use them would need a way to access the data recorded.

I found an interesting article written in French by Frédéric Bacuez who found the remains of a tagged bird named Joe. I  can't read French so I  pasted it into a translation site .

I think the  information he  discovered sheds some light on the  low  survival rate of the Osprey.

In the article he said Joe was not killed by humans and explained why.

He  writes about many dangerous predators that live in Africa including a scorpion type creature that live in water where the birds fish. He found white dropping ( Osprey's droppings are white) under a tree and also evidence that a python had been laying under the tree. He said the Goshawk is a fierce predator of the Osprey and  adult Osprey have been known to injure  or kill  juveniles who are  unwelcome in their  fishing areas .

Weather related deaths are also  mentioned. Fierce winds had been  known to  hurl birds into trees or to the ground and kill them.

Needless to say  natural predators or  weather related dangers are  completely out of our control as  are the  places where Ospreys choose to winter.

Tiger made a good point when he said he suspected the reason the tagged adults survive more often is  because they know of safe areas to stay

Perhaps as Hilary J said  the low survival rate may be  normal for this species 

Here is the  article translated into English .   

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http://ornithondar.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/13-ornithondar-retrouve-les-restes-de.html

Oops I will try again to post the link

http://ornithondar.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/13-ornithondar-retrouve-les-restes-de.html

After you bring the site up in French  you will need to copy & paste the URL into the box on  the translation site 

Here is the  translation site I used. 

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/?ref=TThis&from=fr-FR&to=en-US   

Of Course anyone who can read French will be able to read the article and by-pass the words that were awkwardly translated into English :))

Are there other reasons the Osprey have a low survival rate? No doubt. But  to what degree are these other factors responsible for the deaths of so many  birds?  Can tracking answer those  questions ?

Are the other factors something we can work to change through education ? 

Hi Barbara,

The report makes really interesting reading. I've read through it, and it seems to say that the underlying cause of death of Joe was from fatigue. He had apparantly made  numerous long distance flights shortly after arriving in the African continent. They say he was probably looking for a safe over-wintering spot. After he became severly fatigued & possibly hungry too, he could have died from a number of causes (which may not have caused his death otherwise). These were predation by a mammal such as dogs, hyenas etc or an attack from a bird such as a Goshawk or adult Osprey who would resent his prescence if there is a shortage of food.

There were also a couple of days of late monsoon weather at this time & he could have been injured or blown down into the mud of the pond.

A bug known as a water-scorpion was found in the pond close to where he died & could also have given him a very nasty painful sting at this time, which could have killed him in his feeble state.

They go on to say that while they were there examining the scene in the morning, 2 Ospreys flew over from West to East & that at a later date saw 7 young or immature Ospreys flying over individually in the morning, in the  afternoon they returned going back to their roosting area, thus making an East-West corridor. There was little fishing going on by the Ospreys in the area.

There doesn't seem to be much that can be done about the reasons for his death except that he was tired & hungry from looking for a good spot. Thinking laterally, if a number of fish-farms could be established in known Osprey passage areas, with roosting points close by......... The fish could feed the locals & provide jobs & perhaps be self-financing & the Osrprey population could be counted at intervals & the locals compensated financially for the fish losses, so it would pay not to kill them! (I think this is done in France in the case of wolves & sheep). A fit & healthy Osprey would not be so likely to fall victim. 

Is it also possible that the transmitter equipment was the straw that broke the camels back when he was flying such long distances? Perhaps its better to fit transmittors to adults, known survivors?

This is an interesting idea ! I wonder how much it could cost to stock a small lake with fish?  

Noisette

There doesn't seem to be much that can be done about the reasons for his death except that he was tired & hungry from looking for a good spot. Thinking laterally, if a number of fish-farms could be established in known Osprey passage areas, with roosting points close by......... The fish could feed the locals & provide jobs & perhaps be self-financing & the Osprey population could be counted at intervals & the locals compensated financially for the fish losses, so it would pay not to kill them! (I think this is done in France in the case of wolves & sheep). A fit & healthy Osprey would not be so likely to fall victim. 

I do not apologise for bringing this up.

I do understand for and against.

Please can anyone give a good reason for these birds to be interfered with?

Nests are not to be interfered with and Dyfi to me was a wildlife rescue and thank goodness.

We all know where they go and and the most ridiculous thing ever said to me was,

If there is no data say going back more than 10yrs and some-one wants to open a reserve to help Ospreys with no data how can they. Ridiculous. No-one is going to do that and maybe some-one will say otherwise. Not saying where and who suggested that but ridiculous and some-one say maybe not.

I want to know why? these birds were not brought into this world to have these horrendous harnesses and batteries attached.

I know it will not be stopped but if anyone can give a genuine reason if not for pleasure or commercial reasons I maybe agree. I have tried to follow and feel guilty because I enjoyed but is this a reason to justify this. Barbaric it is. I do see both sides and have my oppinion

What can we learn and my oppininon, it has to stop and if this is not interfering with Nature hope the people doing it can sleep.  Ospreys do not need this. I did here dung beatles are tracked.

This really upsets me and think it is wrong and think it is done for commercial reasons as see no scientific evidence to suggest otherwise.

My oppinion only and willing to listen to both sides

Sorry I do understand both sides but I did try last year and back to square one.