Space round a pond

I've just moved house and I have room to put in a proper pond rather than the little tub one I had at my old house.

I want to dig out a bit of lawn beside my raised patio where there is a concaved edge so is will finish up with an 'eye' shaped pond (more or less)

The patio is probably in the region of 8 inches above the lawn level, is it best to place the pond right up to the edge of the patio of to leave a space or maybe  6-8 inches in between?

I was intending to have the sloped 'access/ exit' side on the lawn side.

Does anyone have any advice to offer regarding what would be best for the wildlife or whether there would be issues with the patio foundation? (I have no idea what's under there but I gather it was professionally laid rather than a DIY job)

Thanks

Hello ffroglet, one thread to look at is this Frog prince did a fab job with detailing his construction of a pond and it is well worth reading.

www.rspb.org.uk/.../4221.aspx

Caroline in Jersey

That's interesting,  and having looked at it I suppose I will need an edge all the way round to secure the pond liner. Useful - thank you

Hello ffroglet

A few years ago I created a pond in my garden right up to the patio, so I thought it might be worth showing you what I did. It isn't a huge pond, but it supports a large number of frogs, toads, newts and so on. I think you are right to consider having sloping sides going down to the pond which acts as a safe drinking area. My birds love the part of the pond beside the patio best, but because the water level is about a foot deep there, I have filled it up with large pebbles and overflowed them onto the patio, which looks really nice. I have several bog areas around the pond too which supports not only bog plants, but loads of insects and there are dozens of dragon flies and damsel flies to be seen in the summer. Make sure there is at least one place where you can stand close to the water using paving or bricks or similar, it could be frustrating creating a wildlife heaven and then not being able to view it up close. One word of caution, having the pond near to the house brings flies nearer the house and when the baby frogs start walking about you can't afford to walk on the patio at night without a torch, otherwise there will be a few squashed babies as a result! Hope that helps.

Here is a shot of it last summer fully planted.

I have loads of photos of it being built, so if you need any other 'work in progress' shots, let me know.

Thanks Tulip. Wow that is a fabulous pond (I also love your giant mushroom is it a birdbath?) I know a pond needs to have  deep bit, how deep does this need to be?

Thanks ffroglet. Yes the mushroom is a birdbath, but the birds don't like it! I loved it when I bought it years ago and it can be used as a waterfall too with a pipe going up the centre (possibly a new project one day). As the birds don't use it for drinking or bathing, I use it for placing trays of food in which the magpies polish off very quickly!

With regard to depth of water, to keep wildlife safe from ice, I dig to at least a metre, more if the pond is large enough. In my last house where I had a huge pond, the depth at it's greatest was just over 6 ft. You need to try for several different depths if you can. Like shelves or steps going down to the deepest part. That way you can incorporate all sorts of different plants and if you plant in baskets, the baskets will sit on the shelves. I prefer to plant in sacking. I make sure it is very holey, fill it with poor soil (you don't want too much rich soil in your pond), place the plants in and then loosely tie at the neck with string. Then lower very very slowly into place. In time the sacking rots as does the string, but by then the plant has established itself. And you haven't had to go through the awful stage where the water is really clear and the black plastic pots can be seen a mile away.

You did originally ask about the patio foundation and whether it is a good idea to put the pond so close. If your liner is doling a good job, the water shouldn't effect the foundations of the patio. Use a huge amount of sand under the liner to make sure nothing punctures it.

Thank you for the advice, that's really helpful. I will be turning the info over in my mind while I finish the main house decorating and then at least when I put spade to soil I shall have some idea of what my aim is.

And now I want a giant mushroom too :o)

As to the depth of wildlife ponds. If you are not keeping fish the deep part of the pond doesn't need to be much more than 30cm. Most wildlife uses the edges...the first 2cm depth. Your pond can be very shallow around the edges with quite a small deep area for male frogs to shelter in the very cold weather.  It is thought that the risk to wildlife from freezing in ponds is over exagerated as is the problem of deoxygenation when the pond is frozen over. Check out the garden Pond Blog jeremybiggs.wordpress.com

Very useful - thanks FP. I suppose it the deep bit is patio side it should also insulate the water a bit too

I am sure there are many theories ffoglet on depth of ponds, but from a personal standpoint, my pond isn't very large and as such in a drought, the water level drops quite a bit. I don't top up my pond with tap water, so there needs to be a fair bit of depth to tide it over until the next rainfall. There are times when the level drops by as much as 15cm, so take that into account too when making your decision. Droughts are becoming quite common. Even if it is not necessary to have a deeper pond than 30cm (I am not as experienced as Frog Prince and wouldn't dream of disputing his findings), I find it useful to have that extra depth as an insurance policy! Also as you can see from the photographs, I plant the edges of my pond heavily and need the depth for marginal planting and bog gardens!

Also I found one spring that frogspawn had been laid in the shallowest part of the pond (not unusual), but due to the drought that year, the frogspawn was daily becoming more exposed and eventually had virtually no water round it. So I moved it into an area where there was more water.

Frog Prince, if you read this, do you have any advice on keeping frogspawn safe from newts? Last spring all the frogspawn was eaten within 3 days of it being laid. A group of 20 or more newts crowd round each clump and munch away at it until it is gone. I was heartbroken, but had no idea what to do. It is the first time it has happened.

Sorry to use your post ffroglet to ask a question, but having found an expert, I can't resist asking questions. I should have put this in a new post really. Apologies.

First piont....I AM NO EXPERT! (especially not on somebody else's pond)

Second point. The eb and flowin the shallow areas is a very important part of the ecology of small ponds. I have seen large numbers of insects (mostly wasps) drinking on the beaches formed by this process. As for the newts eating the frogspawn ....great for the newts. How much do you want to be in charge of nature? Another year the numbers of frogs may be huge and the newts may suffer for some other reason. Apart from removing an excess of leaves caused some years when the wind is in a particular direction and restricting the growth of Water Forget-Me-Not I interveen as little as possible. Every year is different. Some years the Damsel fly and Dragonfly action is huge .... last year there was very little ....so it goes....I watch and marvel and enjoy.

Sorry ffroglet! On every level. On this forum we usually exchange views and experiences in a friendly and constructive way, but I seem to have said all the wrong things, so I will leave you to it and look forward to seeing some photos of your pond when you make a start. All the very best, I hope you enjoy it and all the little creatures who visit the pond.

I don't mind having my post usurped at all Tulip, you help yourself :o) besides its these exchange of ideas that make forums work.

I think if nothing else, the plants need different water depths and a diversity of plants brings in a diversity of wildlife (which is what we all want I think).

I have been reading Frog Prince's blog - it really is very helpful and I'm looking forward to getting cracking on my pond.

Thank you all