Re: OMG !!!! Parakeet invasion

TeeJay

So many in fact that Imperial College are undertaking a study into what impact they are having on the environment and our native wildlife. One of our Forum members, Keeta, has been involved in monitoring night time roosts during last winter. I'm not sure whether that is still ongoing.

Regular roost counts are still being carried out every three months as part of the ICL study. They have also now 'colour marked' some of the parakeets, so if you see Ring-necked Parakeets with odd patches of colour they would like them reported. See www.projectparakeet.co.uk

J_Bomb_3k

I apologize in advance for the long post, but I feel it is necessary. I am most certainly not here to start a 'flame war', but I am most certainly here to 'step up for nature', as we all are beyond doubt. There can be little arguement that the birds are an invasive species, but their impact is thus far little understood in this country as they have not yet reached saturation point.

To that end, you say there 'is actually no real evidence that Ring-necked Parakeets have any adverse effects on native wildlife' and then add an important proviso in brackets which completely undermines your subsequent statements. I have to insist that you are quite wrong.

etc...

There is never any harm in a discussion, unfortunately humans have a natural tendency towards emotional ways of thinking, which can mean that discussions involving culling, or potential culling, can become quite 'highly charged' (There is nothing wrong with having empathy for other living creatures, but there is often very little room for emotion in conservation. Very few, if any, people actually welcome the idea of culls - but they can be necessary to maintain biodiversity).

I would always agree that species that are not already established in the UK (or elsewhere) should be prevented from becoming established, if at all possible, in all cases where they have not arrived by natural dispersal, and I would go as far as to suggest that this should potentially include lethal removal of individuals if there is thought to be any chance that they may breed and increase in numbers - even if (as is likely to be the case) there is no reason to suspect that a large population of the species would affect native wildlife.

On the other hand, once a species is already established it does not seem reasonable to set out to eradicate them simply because "an adverse effect on other wildlife might be discovered in the future. No matter how much research is carried out there will always be  potential for later research to discover that the presence of an introduced species adversely affect one or more native species. Similarly there is always the potential for the future discovery that other things may affect wildlife and/or humans. For example we cannot know that overhead power lines, mobile phone signals etc definitely do not cause cancers - but until there is good evidence that they do, there is little point in going out of our way to counter a hypothetical problem.

The Belgian research, which was published in this paper: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2664.2010.01808.x/full , found that hypothetically an increased population of Ring-necked Parakeets in Belgium could reduce the Nuthatch population by about 11% (with an unlikely extreme figure of a reduction of about a third of the population, as well as a possibility of a loss of less than 11%), if Ring-necked Parakeets reached the maximum  potential carrying capacity of the available habitat. The conclusion was that the effect on the Nuthatch population through competition with Ring-necked Parakeets would not be serious (this is mentioned in the ICL link you posted).

The ICL study into the intimidation of birds at feeding stations by the presence of Ring-necked Parakeets is simply confirming what would be expected. The same 'intimidation can be seen whenever larger birds visit feeding stations (eg. Great Spotted Woodpeckers, Woodpigeons etc.). Even Great Tits will scare off Blue Tits and Coal Tits - which wait their turn nearby. It's also worth noting that almost all of the species that most regularly visit garden bird feeding stations are actually increasing in number (see BTO bird trend figures).

I'm pretty sure that the study in IBIS, which is the journal of the British Ornithologists union, does not conclude that Ring-necked Parakeets will be found to have an effect on other bird species in the future (I did read it at the time, but don't have it available now). It highlights the situation as being a good one for study to see if any effects can be found - on the basis that previously there has been little 'before' data available with which to compare the situation after an 'invasive' bird species has become established. There may be an effect discovered, but we shouldn't assume that there will be.

So why did the so called educated ones order an eradication of the ruddy duck that was doing so well in this country, because of a chance of meeting up with a white headed duck.And what about sea eagle x golden eagle??? dont know, how strange.

caper1

So why did the so called educated ones order an eradication of the ruddy duck that was doing so well in this country, because of a chance of meeting up with a white headed duck.And what about sea eagle x golden eagle??? dont know, how strange.

Each case is currently considered separately (which is the best way), and the two examples that you have given here are very different from both each other and from the parakeet situation.

White-tailed Eagles have been deliberately reintroduced after becoming extinct in the UK, with the reason for the extinction believed to have been caused, at least in part, by man. Some displacement of Golden Eagle pairs by White-tailed Eagles establishing territories was not unexpected - and most, if not all, of the displaced pairs would probably not have been in those territories in the first place if White-tailed Eagles had remained extant (the optimum requirements of the two species differ, but Golden Eagles will move into territories that have been left vacant by the absence of White-tailed Eagles). There is no reason to believe that White-tailed Eagles will have any real effect on Golden Eagle populations, other than minor displacement of some, mainly coastal, pairs.

In the case of Ruddy Ducks, the cull was thought to be necessary because there was reasonable evidence that the population in the UK was a spreading into Europe, and because Ruddy Ducks that were reaching Spain were hybridising with the White-headed Duck which is red-listed as 'globally endangered' (whereas the Ruddy Duck is common and under no threat in its native range in North America). There are known cases of other duck species which are now all but extinct as a result of hybridisation with feral Mallards, so it was considered reasonable to assume that a similar situation could occur with Ruddy Ducks if they continued to spread. Leaving the Ruddy Ducks in the UK alone and just shooting those that reached the areas where White-headed Ducks occur would not be a realistic option - that would almost be like mopping up the water on the bathroom floor while leaving the taps running on an overflowing bath. 

The three cases are quite, quite different. With the eagles, that was the reintroduction of a native bird that was extinct locally, as was the enormously successful Red Kite project. No one could possibly have any logical umbrage with that effort, and kudos to those who carried it out.

As RoyW says above, the Ruddy Duck management was undertaken because, whilst there was not necessarily a problem right on our doorstep, world-wide the picture was very different. I suppose a useful parallel there could be acid rain in Scandinavia. We create the gasses but the rain falls elsewhere: we suffer not. Again, this cull logically makes sense.

Finally, parakeets. According to the evidence, they are both an increasing problem locally and a huge problem in parts of Europe, whether it be the spoiling of crops or the extra strain put on ecosystems. Richmond Park is possibly the best example this as it is an enclosed environment: home to some wonderful bird- and wildlife, but, due to the many ancient trees and therefore nesting sites, is literally infested with parakeets which breed first in the year and out-compete all other hole-nesting species. I cannot help but wonder, when viewed alongside the reports I linked to above, what a joy the park must have been before the parakeets arrived. Logically, then, regardless of how 'nice' the parakeets themselves are, when native ecosystems are suffering because of an invader, the invader should be removed as far as possible. This is, I believe, called 'conservation', and is similar in logic to programs that seek to control mink, japanese knotweed, rhodedendron, American crayfish, etc etc etc ad infinitum, so why not parakeets?

J_Bomb_3k

Finally, parakeets. According to the evidence, they are both an increasing problem locally and a huge problem in parts of Europe, whether it be the spoiling of crops or the extra strain put on ecosystems. Richmond Park is possibly the best example this as it is an enclosed environment: home to some wonderful bird- and wildlife, but, due to the many ancient trees and therefore nesting sites, is literally infested with parakeets which breed first in the year and out-compete all other hole-nesting species. I cannot help but wonder, when viewed alongside the reports I linked to above, what a joy the park must have been before the parakeets arrived. Logically, then, regardless of how 'nice' the parakeets themselves are, when native ecosystems are suffering because of an invader, the invader should be removed as far as possible. This is, I believe, called 'conservation', and is similar in logic to programs that seek to control mink, japanese knotweed, rhodedendron, American crayfish, etc etc etc ad infinitum, so why not parakeets?

There is good reason to believe that the growing population of Ring-necked Parakeets could become a major problem for some businesses, fruit growing businesses in particular, and also to those who grow fruit and veg for personal use - and this is why the species has been added to the general licence, meaning that they can legally be killed by land owners who are sustaining losses as a result of their presence.

Personally I think that preventing economic loss (for which a very good argument for a cull could be put forward) is very different to suggesting that they should be culled for conservation. As I have said, there is currently no good evidence that they have any major effect on any native wildlife (including on the continent), despite the fact that they are now present in very large numbers (estimated at 30,000+ in the UK, and probably in the region of 15,000+ in Belgium, as well as many populations elsewhere in Europe).

The other species you mention (mink, Japanese Knotweed etc) have all been demonstrated to cause problems.

TeeJay ...I absolutely adore the pic of the parakeet doing the splits. Would you be so kind as to post it in the photos section so that I can "favourite" it.

I am not recommending it purely on economic grounds: my standpoint is purely conservational. What I am saying, however, given what I have read in the reports I linked to in my initial post (which I discovered from Google searches, I will continue to research further), all of which were written by people far, far more intelligent than me, is that the parakeets have an impact. Due to the study of them being in its infancy, lack of data stretching far enough back is a problem for those studying them, but that is not to say there is no or little impact. I don't want the problem to get any worse.

A new study's underway into the daily movements and behaviour of parakeets roosting in London's Wormwood Scrubs area. If you see one sprayed purple, please note when and where, then send info to Netty at parakeetstudy@yahoo.com.

It is an emotive subject and we get the full range of views expressed via our switchboard on a weekly basis. The language used in these conversations is revealing. Words such as 'invaders, immigrants and aliens' or even referring to them as 'a problem species' makes conservation conundrums infinitely more difficult.

UK species (not just birds) are changing and ranges of species are shifting. Conservation is not about trying to hold things in aspic. Like Canute, we cannot control nature. We can observe changes, try to understand them and their implications and then find ways to make any uncomfortable transition easier or to make life better.

In extreme cases, like that on Henderson Island the changes being observed were so alarming, that an equally alarming solution was agreed. The observed changes that caused alarm were a result of human intervention. People unwittingly and disastrously introduced rats.

People who admired parakeets brought them to the UK in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Some of those parakeets have escaped and bred and have now formed a quite considerable population. Like house sparrows once did, their numbers have burgeoned around people. In the UK we're losing our sparrows. In the US, where they were introduced by European settlers, sparrows are viewed with the same polarised mix of contempt and delight that we exhibit for parakeets.

The UK, especially London, is a melting pot of diverse people. We are arguably a better nation for that diversity. We sometimes forget it's a melting pot of biodiversity too.

Hi Tim wow have a look at this post from one of my threads yesterday, could this be one.

Corinne Lynch

 We also get a woodpecker hanging onto our feeders and competing with the parakeets for nuts.  Yesterday, I had the most amazing parakeet arrive in our garden with a flock of 'normal' green ring-necked parakeets.  It was blue - I'm guessing it's a mutation and wondering if it is just the start of a variety of new colours, like the budgie.

I will see if I can figure out how to upload the two photos I took.

Corinne

J_Bomb_3k

I am not recommending it purely on economic grounds: my standpoint is purely conservational. What I am saying, however, given what I have read in the reports I linked to in my initial post (which I discovered from Google searches, I will continue to research further), all of which were written by people far, far more intelligent than me, is that the parakeets have an impact. Due to the study of them being in its infancy, lack of data stretching far enough back is a problem for those studying them, but that is not to say there is no or little impact. I don't want the problem to get any worse.

I wasn't suggesting that you were saying that R-nPs should be culled on economic grounds, but in my opinion an argument on that basis would beslightly better supported on current knowledge than arguing for a cull on conservation grounds.

All studies that have been carried out so far have suggested that while there may be some effect, there is absolutely no evidence that there will be a significant net overall effect on any other wildlife. This is why major conservation organisations in the UK, including the RSPB and Wildlife Trusts* (*certainly the London Wildlife Trust) have said that they are not in favour of a cull, but believe that the Ring-necked Parakeet population, and any effect on other wildlife, should be monitored. If the current studies, or later studies, find any negative effects, their position (and mine) might change. It would already be a major economic, and logistical, problem to "control" the population, so it is beyond being a case of acting early while it is easy to prevent a potential problem.

doggie

Hi Tim wow have a look at this post from one of my threads yesterday, could this be one.

Corinne Lynch

 We also get a woodpecker hanging onto our feeders and competing with the parakeets for nuts.  Yesterday, I had the most amazing parakeet arrive in our garden with a flock of 'normal' green ring-necked parakeets.  It was blue - I'm guessing it's a mutation and wondering if it is just the start of a variety of new colours, like the budgie.

I will see if I can figure out how to upload the two photos I took.

Corinne

'Blue' Ring-necked Parakeets are one of the colour forms that is found in captivity (you can also get yellow forms). These are specifically bred, and I believe rely on the presence of a number of different recessive genes, so are unlikely to be found in any wild populations - except when individuals escape. (do a google image search for "blue Ring-necked Parakeet", or "yellow Ring-necked Parakeet).

The marked birds will be normal Ring-necked Parakeets, but with patches of purple somewhere on their plumage (or possibly other colours if more are added to the study).

Corrine has posted her pics - the bird does look to be blue!  They are posted in 'wildlife in your garden' - photos

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/wildlife/homesforwildlife/m/hfwwildlife/575767.aspx

Yep It looks blue to me Debz on my laptop.

Actually would be interested to know whether this bird is a 'colour variant' or a different type of parakeet.  I know that in an area of Manchester there are 2 parrots (Amazon Parrot and Crimson rosella) that hang out with the parakeets.

Debz

Corrine has posted her pics - the bird does look to be blue!  They are posted in 'wildlife in your garden' - photos

http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/wildlife/homesforwildlife/m/hfwwildlife/575767.aspx

Yes, that's a blue colour form which has escaped from a cage or aviary.

This site has photos in the galleries showing various selectively bred colour forms:

http://www.karmicaviaries.com/Ringnecks.htm